Terra Nova Dairy vs Wabash County BZA

Indiana CAFO News Update

How many have been following the CAFO news in Indiana of late? If you have, you might already be aware of the Indiana State Court of Appeals decision with respect to "Terra Nova Dairy, LLC vs Wabash County Board of Zoning Appeals" which upheld the trial court's decision.

You can find the details listed at: Indiana Appellate Opinions - Appeals

Or, if you would like a direct link to the pdf version of the ruling, go through this link.

Indiana State Court of Appeals Decision

To loosely sum things up, the Wabash County BZA denied Terra Nova Dairy (TND) their Improvement Location Permit (ILP) Application to build their CAFO. When TND was declined by the BZA, they took it to trial court. They lost.

TND then appealed the trial court decision and from what I understand, they based a large part of their argument on the point that the initial BZA ruling was based on an unlawful CAFO moratorium.

But the Wabash County BZA argued their decision to decline TND's ILP Application for the construction of a Concentrated Animal Feeding Operation (CAFO) in Wabash County was based on incomplete filing -- and the Indiana State Court of Appeals ruled yesterday in favor of the Wabash County Board of Zoning and the Wabash Court.

In my humble opinion, this really is a simple case of "No means NO."

But who knows if it will end here. Terra Nova Dairy still has the option to take this one more step -- to the Supreme Court -- if they desire.

And the word for the day is: estoppel

ESTOPPEL: A bar preventing one from making an allegation or a denial that contradicts what one has previously stated as the truth. [Obsolete French estouppail, from Old French estouper, to stop up, from Vulgar Latin *stuppre; see stop.] (def. from thefreedictionary.com)

seen the new jibjab video? Check it out

I chose the term jibber-jabber in yesterday's post without realising that jib-jab was coming out with a new flash video today.

Some might find it offensive but I thought it was hilarious.

Turn up your speakers and kick back to watch the new jib jab video - Time For Some Campaignin' - about the 2008 Presidential elections.

Color Me Purple - Oil

Quick Quiz/2-Part Question: What disaster happened in November, 20, 1980, that almost sucked away an entire lake within hours of it happening... and what tiny engineering error is believed to be the cause of the disaster? (See video below for the answer.)

This is the second in a series of "Color Me Purple" posts that I will be writing leading up to the November 2008 elections.

Energy - Part 2: To Drill for Oil ...or Not?

The whole oil thing kind of reminds me of a Shakespearean drama... "To be or not to be. That is the question..."

I sincerely doubt that any single one of us knows the whole back story and behind the scenes deals that have taken place -- and HUGE deals probably taking place at this very minute -- on the subject of oil.

The brief little news soundbites that we hear throughout the day mostly revolve around pain at the pumps. Regarding the big picture, few (if any) of those newscasts have been covering stories like these:

Supply On Demand -- This is an interesting short article about the backdoor deals being made direct with drilling companies that are taking oil (and other commodities) out of the global marketplace. Could this be a large part of that "shortage" refrain we keep hearing about? In other words, is demand outstripping supply mainly because more and more of that supply is no longer reaching the market -- even though it is still there?

The Whole Afghanistan/Iraq/Pakistan/Iran Thing -- Another interesting article that refers to the huge TAPI 1,680 km long pipeline project that will... "...export gas and, later, oil from the Caspian Basin to Pakistan’s coast where tankers will transport it to the west." Rather than tell you about the bizarre deals struck on this one, you're better off reading it for yourself here.

Oil and gas deals benefit from rising commodity prices - yet another type of "deal" that has proved to be lucrative for some, thanks to rising gas and oil prices. This is a side to the industry we seldom hear much about.

Drilling Rig Shortage - Is it an oil shortage, or a drilling equipment shortage? Even as Bush lifts the Federal ban on drilling, what good will it do when "the world’s existing drill-ships are booked solid for the next five years" as reported in this New York Times article.

Demand is so high that shipbuilders, the biggest of whom are in Asia, have raised prices since last year by as much as $100 million a vessel to about half a billion dollars.

Even though the report came on June 18, 2008... the story is not new. StockIndicator wrote about the drilling equipment (and experienced labor shortage) problem two years ago, back in 2006, stating,

"During the course of our three-month investigation, we found the labor and equipment shortage applied not only to uranium but also to coal, oil and gas, coal bed methane and precious metals exploration. ...For investors, the labor and drill rig shortage has a silver lining. As inventories dwindle lower, commodity prices will continue rising."

Well, we all know today how accurate that particular prediction became.

With all the far left and far right jibber-jabber on the oil topic, it's oh-so-difficult to wade through the hype and get to the real facts. Is it speculators jacking up the price? Is it dropping supply or just supply not reaching the marketplace? Is it really increase in demand... to the point that they truly don't believe ANY alternatives will exist by the 2012 or 2015 mark when new wells are expected to start producing? Is it groups who want to capitalize on current high prices to line their own pockets and take advantage of the perceived panic being stirred up on the issue?

I don't have the answers to any of those questions. And sadly, I doubt if I would believe the answers unless they came with irrefutable evidence -- proof that the answers I get are actually the truth.

And so, with respect to the question...

Should we open up drilling rights?

In short, if it's "PROVEN" beyond a shadow of a doubt that drilling needs to open up in areas previously banned, then I sincerely believe STRONG, IRREVOCABLE PRECONDITIONS need to be set.

CONDITION #1: Zero export condition. In other words... absolutely NONE -- and I mean ZERO -- of any oil produced from wells located in those previously banned areas can be exported in any way, shape, derivative, form, etc. Absolutely 100% of all oil and/or gas and/or other minerals would have to be sold exclusively within the U.S.A. and with the condition attached that it never leave our borders -- even after refining and/or being converted into other products (such as cooking oil, plastics, etc.).

Not a single drop goes off our shores -- period.

Furthermore, severe penalties need to be put in place -- right up front -- to ensure not a drop from these protected areas goes into the global pool.

Sounds pretty nuts, right? Maybe at first glance...

Take another look at the condition and, if the oil produced from those previously banned drilling areas couldn't be used in any way shape or form for export, how quickly do you see this condition having a positive impact on energy (even food) prices here at home? Makes me curious if it would have an impact.

Hmmmm... makes you kind of wonder how many of those companies eager to start drilling will still be in the picture if this condition were attached to the rights, doesn't it?

I'm guessing even fewer of them would stick around for this next condition...

CONDITION #2: 100% Accountability. I'm sick to death of hearing how the industry has improved and how they can do things today with little to no impact on the environment.

Therefore, I say, if they are that confident, they should be able to put up substantial performance bonds in trust and remain fully 100% accountable straight through 50 years AFTER they have ceased operations, dismantled their rigs/facilities and gone away -- LEAVING NO TRACE BEHIND. The bonds would be held in trust until that 50-year dormancy period has expired.

AND if, God forbid, anything should happen... the company has to pay for it out of their own pockets -- not the taxpayers' pockets -- and not through the performance bonds. No "name the blame campaigns" or "fingerpointing" or whatever -- just fess up and pay up. Also, if something bad does happen -- they lose their bonds. The bonds go to the taxpayers. If nothing bad happens -- the companies get their bonds back after the 50-year dormancy period mentioned above.

The above is a simplified approach. I'm sure the legal eagles can hammer out the full details of how it works to protect both environment and taxpayers while at the same time, hold companies fully accountable.

Now why, oh why, would such strong zero tolerance requirements need to be in place? Well, take a look at this video to see what can go wrong from one simple mistake. It's the answer to the QUIZ above, about the Louisiana sink hole that drained an entire lake.

Here's how one small mistake can have disastrous consequences:



CONDITION #3: Shorten "Rights" Time - They don't get 25 years. They don't get 15... They don't even get 10 years. Let's give 5 MAX and a penalty if they don't do anything at all. No sitting on the rights until the climate changes or the attached conditions can be changed by bribing (oops, did I say that?) a future administration... or whatever. Use it - or REALLY lose it - period. Once you've lost it, you can't ever bid on it again. You had your chance.

Now you might think, with the above three conditions (there are more, but those will do for now) that I'm against drilling.

Not entirely. I'm just thinking most of it is too little, too late.

With that said, I am against drilling if it's intended to line pockets of companies who think more about profits, less about this country, and least of all about the taxpayers who've had to help clean up a mess or two before. Do it right, or don't do it at all.

And do it for the reasons you "say" you want to do it, and not for some hidden agenda because maybe you've made a few backdoor deals that have supposedly caused demand to outstrip supply in recent years. Do it right AND do it for us, or don't do it at all. 'Nuff said.

So, this undecided voter has given her P.O.V. on the subject of drilling for oil.

Candidates -- don't give me the big spin on "if you're for or against it." Instead, tell me, (1) if we really have to do it first, and if so... (2) what conditions would you attach? And, for the record, (3) if we really don't have to drill, will you tell me the truth and not let them drill?

Bottom line is, what really say you?


Sidenote: For the record, I'm ALL FOR SUSTAINABLE energy solutions that do NOT require fossil fuels, particularly with respect to transportation.

As a mechanic's daughter, a retired mechanic who once owned a fairly successful company specializing in hydraulic repairs, I honestly believe there just HAS to be a better way to turn and stop a wheel. Surely the combustion engine has had it's day in the sun long enough. Surely there is a better, cleaner and safer way. I just can't believe that it still takes that many parts to ...as I said... turn and stop a wheel. Take the need for transportation fuels out of the demand loop and we'll probably see a MASSIVE difference in demand -- and price.

Necessity is the mother of invention. Today's high oil prices may bring out some of the best inventions we've ever seen to date. Wouldn't that be nice? If demand suddenly fell off a cliff, then what would happen to price?

Color Me Purple - Energy Part 1

Quick Quiz: What killed 1,700 people and thousands of cattle within a 25 km radius? The answer is below in this post.

This is the first in a series of "Color Me Purple" posts that I will be writing leading up to the November 2008 elections.

Color Me Purple = Undecided Voter (UV)

All UV posts will touch on issues (or parts of an issue) that I feel the candidates haven't clearly addressed, or haven't addressed at all... hence, my UV status. And so I begin with...

ENERGY - Part 1

If you know me, you know how I deplore wasteful Government spending -- and when it comes to the ENERGY issue, there's plenty of areas they tend to "p" away our money, flushing it down the drain on some of the most hair-brained ideas I've ever heard of... CCS being one of them.

CCS stands for "Carbon Capture and Storage," where you take the CO2 emissions from large producers of it (like coal power plants to name one source) and cram it 1.3 miles to 1.6 miles deep into the ground for permanent storage. Here's a pic to give you a better idea:


click for larger pic

It's kind of like sweeping the dirt under your rug. If nobody sees it, it must be clean, right? D'oh!

Here are two previous articles I wrote on the subject:

1. And the FutureGen Winner is Mattoon (Dec. 18, 2007)
2. FutureGen Update (Dec. 19, 2007)

You might recall one of my main concerns was the possibility of this stuff leaking out over the years. Even worse things are possible... which I'll get to in a minute.

Had the DOE not backed off on the project, we, the taxpayers, would be paying for FutureGen's insurance, plus waiving them of all liability (read responsibility) should anything leak (or worse) from the CO2 storage after a 10 year period -- AND, we would be paying (via the DOE) 74% of the costs to build the thing.

UPDATE on CCS -- It's Worse Than Even I Thought

Today, the Institute of Science in Society (ISIS) sent out a press release on the CCS subject, with some additional facts which paint a pretty horrific picture of what can happen if -- only IF -- things go wrong at a CO2 storage site.

As long as CO2 is stored in geological sites, there is a risk of slow leakage or large scale escape that will impact the surrounding environment and negate the climate mitigating effect.

A natural example of the danger of CO2 escape occurred at Lake Nyos Cameroon in 1986 following a volcanic eruption, which released large quantities of the CO2 accumulated at the bottom of the lake. It killed 1,700 people and thousands of cattle within a 25 km radius. (emphasis added by me)

A 2006 US Geological Survey pilot field experiment was carried out to test deep geological disposal of carbon dioxide in a saline sedimentary rock formation in Frio, Texas. The researchers found that the buried CO2 dissolved large amounts of the minerals in the rocks responsible for keeping the gas contained. The CO2 dissolved in the salty water, turning it to acid.

The acidified brine dissolved other minerals, including metals such as iron and manganese, organic material and relatively large amounts of carbonates that naturally seal pores and fractures in geological sites.

Carbonate is also found in the cements used to seal abandoned oil and gas wells. Dissolving these carbonate seals could release CO2 into the atmosphere. The contaminated brine could further leak into aquifers and contaminate drinking and irrigation water.

The lead scientist in the field experiment Yousif Kharaka warned that the results are “a cautionary note” that calls for “detailed and careful studies of injection sites” and for “a well thought out monitoring programme to detect early leaks of CO2 into shallow potable groundwater or to the atmosphere.”

With all the other options available to us that are -- safer, cleaner, cheaper -- why in the world would our government be yanking money from our paychecks to pursue CCS? How much money?

CCS is diverting funds away from renewable energy options. The US DOE’s 2009 spending on CCS is $623.5 million, a 26.4 percent increase over 2008, at the same time that it is scaling back programmes on renewable energy and efficiency by 27.1 percent to US$145.2 million. (read more here)

Be wary of any candidate who chimes out he is pursuing "clean energy" initiatives without detailing what those so-called "clean" initiatives are... and knowing exactly who profits (and who pays).

In the case of CCS, I say scrap it. Take that $623.5 million and either give it back to us, or put it towards free energy and/or renewable energy. Heck, even the nuclear energy option sounds better than CCS (not that I'm in favor of it, yet). At least the spent uranium becomes neutral after a couple million (or billion?) years. But that CO2 just sits there, waiting for it's day in the sun.

Archeologists of the future beware. Gives a whole new meaning to the phrase "call before you dig" doesn't it?

USA Fed Facing Embarrassing IMF Investigation?

For many in the USA during any typical work week:

You get up. You go to work. You earn your pay. You go home and finish the rest of your day... totally unaware of what's going on at the global level regarding the value of the dollars in that paycheck you're bringing home.

Show of hands: Before now, how many didn't know that an organization called the International Monetary Fund (IMF) exists?

Interestingly enough (or perhaps 'not surprisingly') some countries love the IMF. Some countries hate the IMF. And yet, most countries belong to it. (see link)

It's purpose?

The IMF describes itself as "an organization of 185 countries (Montenegro being the 185th, as of January 18, 2007), working to foster global monetary cooperation, secure financial stability, facilitate international trade, promote high employment and sustainable economic growth, and reduce poverty". With the exception of North Korea, Cuba, Andorra, Monaco, Liechtenstein, Tuvalu, and Nauru, all UN member states participate directly in the IMF. Most are represented by other member states on a 24-member Executive Board but all member countries belong to the IMF's Board of Governors.

The reason I bring this up now is because of a news article I found (quite by accident) which was recently translated (from German) into English reporting the following:

Officials with the International Monetary Fund (IMF) have informed Bernanke about a plan that would have been unheard-of in the past: a general examination of the US financial system. The IMF's board of directors has ruled that a so-called Financial Sector Assessment Program (FSAP) is to be carried out in the United States. It is nothing less than an X-ray of the entire US financial system.

As part of the assessment, the Fed, the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC), the major investment banks, mortgage banks and hedge funds will be asked to hand over confidential documents to the IMF team. They will be required to answer the questions they are asked during interviews. Their databases will be subjected to so-called stress tests -- worst-case scenarios designed to simulate the broader effects of failures of other major financial institutions or a continuing decline of the dollar.

Under its bylaws, the IMF is charged with the supervision of the international monetary system. Roughly two-thirds of IMF members -- but never the United States -- have already endured this painful procedure. (link to full story)

The article goes on to report:

For seven years, US President George W. Bush refused to allow the IMF to conduct its assessment. Even now, he has only given the IMF board his consent under one important condition. The review can begin in Bush's last year in office, but it may not be completed until he has left the White House. This is bad news for the Fed chairman.

When the final report on the risks of the US financial system is released in 2010 -- and it is likely to cause a stir internationally -- only one of the people in positions of responsiblity today will still be in office: Ben Bernanke.

It all reminds me of an old Johnny Cash tune called "Ring of Fire." I'm guessing we all know who the fall guy is going to be when the dust settles.

You know, with all this talk about strengthening our boarders, it's kind of wierd to me that we would be required to "open our books" to nations outside our boarders.

Makes ya kinda wonder how many other foreign powers are dictating how our country is run and who is allowed to rule it ...doesn't it?

Oil Bubbles about to Burst?

There's an old expression that goes something like this, "The squeaky wheel gets the grease."

With the price of oil and gas skyrocketing so quickly over the past 18 months, there are a whole lotta wheels squeaking -- and as usual, in Washington, a whole lotta finger-pointing, name-the-blame gaming and frankly IMHO, a whole lotta dumb ideas bubbling to the surface on how to correct the problem to quiet at least some of those squeaky wheels.

In Washington, the phrase should be more like this, "The biggest squeaky wheels get the grease."

Word on the street suggests one of those "biggest squeaky wheels" -- namely the financial lobbyists -- want to keep inflating the oil bubble... at least according to this Washington Post article.

Wall Street banks and other large financial institutions have begun putting intense pressure on Congress to hold off on legislation that would curtail their highly profitable trading in oil contracts -- an activity increasingly blamed by lawmakers for driving up prices to record levels.

Naturally, these squeaky wheels are playing the same old broken record "it's all about supply and demand" ...but, supply and demand of what, exactly?

Think about it.

Their industry runs on profits and losses. How do you show your clients a good return on their dollars when you lose one of your biggest money-makers? I'm talking about those cute surprise packages stuffed with sub-prime mortgages that are still reverberating shock waves through financial sectors. (It's not over until it's over.)

Back on point.

There is a bubble here, but whether it actually bursts will depend on who keeps blowing hot air into it. And, as it looks like the biggest squeaky wheels are getting bigger, they just might be allowed to continue doing that...

"Increasing regulation on what we do will not lower energy prices," said Greg Zerzan, head of global public policy for ISDA. The association, which represents all aspects of the multibillion-dollar practice of trading exotic financial contracts outside of formal exchanges, hosts a conference call every Friday in Washington to coordinate the activities of like-minded groups.

Its latest addition: the Financial Services Roundtable, the lobby for 100 of the nation's largest financial services companies. And now the Roundtable and ISDA are courting the nation's largest business federation, the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, to join their crusade. Chamber executives said they were seriously considering the alliance.

One thing about their industry they might have forgotten. They have to rely on the "trust" placed in them by the very investors buying their products. What happens when people finally stop trusting them, too?

Grab the popcorn. We're in for an interesting show.

REMC Elections Tuesday Night

It's that time of year again... and time to get involved with your REMC Co-op by showing up for the dinner/meeting Tuesday night (JUNE 10, 2008) with your BLUE CARD. Here are the details:

WHERE: Jasper County Fairgrounds

WHEN: Dinner from 5 – 6:30
Voting and meeting from 7 – 7:30
Comedian after that.

If you don't bring your BLUE CARD to the meeting, you will not receive a ballot, $5.00 bill credit, nor will you be eligible for the door prizes.

If you lost or misplaced your BLUE CARD, call Jasper County REMC at 866-4601

Also note -- if last year's super long line up is anything to go by, you'll definitely want to get there early this year.

SIDENOTE TO K.R.: There are 3 people running for elections that I know are passionate about trying to keep our rates low. Please vote for -- Leonard Richardson -- Danny Reese -- Shelly Conley

See you tomorrow night!

And PLEASE remember to bring your BLUE CARD.

PS: Yes, K.R., I got my computer fixed today.Whew! Thought I'd have to go buy yet another one.

Salmonella In Your Salad

First lettuce, then spinach, and now it's tomatoes that have been identified as salmonella contaminated -- and causing the latest in a long string of salmonella outbreaks over the past few years.

Read this June 3/2008 news article: Tomatoes Eyed in Salmonella Outbreak

Elsewhere on my blog I posted links to several scientific studies providing plenty of evidence that shows how plants can actually uptake salmonella (and related) during the growth cycle of the plant. Indeed, one study revealed salmonella can actually thrive and, in some instances, multiply inside the fruit or vegetable for a considerable length of time after uptake.

Not to sound like a broken record here, but jeepers creepers, has the world forgotten how to farm?

Sustainable SAFE farming practices aren't that difficult to follow.

Certain Big AG practices on the other hand appear (to me) to be rapidly deteriorating the safety of our food supply, destroying water and land in the process.

I wonder how many "outbreaks" it will take to wake them up?

SIDENOTE - What's that AWFUL SMELL?

Jon... is that coming from YOUR side of the trees?

I've had to keep our little boy inside or away from our home these past two days in a row. Not a great beginning to his summer vacation from school.

The amonia was so strong it was actually burning my nostrils, ...thought my eyes would bleed!! And the stench -- well -- sheesh -- it was as bad as taking a drive through Fair Oaks, maybe even a bit worse.

The air conditioner, 2 huge ionizing air purifiers, one small HEPA air purifier and the like sure had their work cut out for them on Monday. You have no idea how hard it was to pop a few flower seeds in the ground. Thankfully we spent most of the day at the library yesterday to get away from it but coming home was no picnic.

If it was an accident, please clean it up right quick.

If it's just "business as usual" and this is what we have to look forward to for the rest of the summer, heed this: "Stop trespassing on my land!"

If it wasn't you, Jon, then I apologize for singling you out... but, maybe you can tell me who it was and where it came from?

Thank you.

PS: Where do I lodge my formal written complaints?

Maxwell's Silver Hammer

Maxwell farms' Unionport Nursery in Randolph County has been slammed with a second bout of TGE (transmissible gastroenteritis) plaguing their 16,000-pig nursery, the second outbreak in 5 months, reports the Starpress.com. The disease is HIGHLY CONTAGIOUS, although not a threat to humans according to the Indiana Board of Animal Health:

Denise Derrer, public information director at the Indiana Board of Animal Health said the risk of cross contamination is why the agency preaches the importance of sanitation. Operators of concentrated animal feeding operations (CAFOs) usually require visitors to undress, shower and don clothing they provide when inside a barn. Visitors must repeat the showering procedure before leaving,

The state doesn't have an accounting of every case of TGE, Derrer said, as the disease often is diagnosed clinically, rather than with a laboratory test. But Derrer confirmed it is common, and said it's not a risk for humans. (Link to full article.)

Some of you might recall the controversy in Randolph County over CAFOs and CFOs and remember Maxwell Foods from the March 3 Muncie Star Press article:

"Maxwell Foods, one of the nation's largest pig producers, filed suit in Randolph County in early February, hoping to overturn the moratorium that would have blocked its local expansion," the paper reported.

You can read more about the mess happening over in Randloph County through this excellent article over at The Bloomington Alternative. It's a long article, but well worth your time to read.

Meanwhile, Kemplog provided an excellent update with respect to the Randolph County CAFO dilemna (link here).

There's another interesting (though much older) post over at the Berry Street Beacon entitled, "NORTH CAROLINA CORPORATION INVADES INDIANA TO CONSTRUCT CAFOs"

Pause for Thought: I wonder if there is any insurance coverage for situations like this Maxwell thing? If there is, I'm guessing that companies like Maxwell Foods are driving the cost of insurance sky high for all the other CAFOs/CFOs.

Food Price-Fixing by the Feds?

As the price of food goes higher and higher, you ever wonder if governments (such as ours) have had a hand in it all?

I'm not outright saying they have...

But, think back to their big ethanol push with respect to corn prices. Of course, there are opponents on both sides of the aisle -- one side claiming ethanol has caused the largest increase, the other side claiming skyrocketing corn (and other grain) prices have little to do with the ethanol push, that it plays a very minor roll in the big picture.

While they're debating the issue, I'm going to take you back to another article I wrote called "bailout nation" ...to remind you of where a good chunk of our tax dollars went recently.

In the article I hinted that the Government would probably find a way to bailout the hog industry with our tax dollars, too.

Well, guess what?

Check out this article over at KansasCity.com entitled - "USDA to buy pork for aid programs amid hog market woes"

WICHITA, Kan. | When Agriculture Secretary Ed Schafer announced the government's plan to buy up to $50 million of pork products for child nutrition and other domestic food assistance programs, it seemed to be a generous effort to help poor families struggling with high grocery tabs.

But what the Agriculture Department failed to mention in making Thursday's announcement was that the move was just what the National Pork Producers Council had urged Schafer to do two weeks earlier to reduce sow numbers — ultimately driving up pork prices for all consumers.

In my article, "Desparate Acts by Hog Producers," I had a feeling the bailout would be coming soon. Sure enough, the Feds haven't let me down. So predictable. Sheesh!

When you next consider The High Cost of Food -- think about all the price increases that have been caused, directly and/or indirectly, by Government policies and/or actions.

The price of food keeps going up, up, and up...

The price of gas keeps going up, up, and up...

Taxes keep going up, up, and up...

And, uh, we're paying them to do, err, what exactly?

Are you Fed up, yet?